At a January 26 "Editors' Lounge" event held at Alpha Dogs in Burbank, CA, Panasonic representatives discussed the next big step in the P2 product line — beyond the AG-HPX500 that was introduced to the press last week. The AJ-HPX3000, due sometime before the end of the year, will bring true 10-bit 1920x1080 imaging to the P2 line-up for somewhere south of $50,000.
Watch the video, below, to see a presentation on P2 workflow by Panasonic Broadcast's Tom James.
The presentation at the Lounge was short on details, but here's a cribsheet on what to expect from the HPX3000.
2 million pixel progressive image block
Using the AVC-Intra codec, get a 10-bit image at full 1920x1080 resolution, not 1440x1080
Camera will be less than $50,000
32 GB P2 cards will be "about $1000" at year's end
Because NLE support won't be ready at the camera's launch, Panasonic will provide tools that will decode 1920x1080 content and send it out via HD-SDI
"By this time next year, there will be codec support in the edit packages ... and we're going to put that D-5 quality across FireWire."
P2 Workflow & Archiving
While many have been raving about the HVX200 and are eagerly awaiting the HVX2000 due to ship in May, and even more so the HPX500 and HPX3000, others point to the problems inherent in an IT workflow like those of P2 and other tapeless cameras present.
“P2 is a real practical solution for news or anything where you just want the cut piece and you don’t have to save your source material,” says Howard Brock, president of Runway, an editorial rental house in LA. “The problem is if you need to archive that material it’s going to be a challenge. You have a couple hard drives on the shelf storing the material and it’s tough to keep track of it all. It’s not like having a bunch of tapes.”
John Svetlik, senior account manager, Creative Media Partners adds, “In the case of backing up the data you have all sorts of imperfect mechanisms and these issues are not limited to the video world. How do you move digital data forward? Asset management is the thing you are going to hear more and more and more. When you are just talking about bits, what is the right format and how do you find it again? It becomes a database problem. As you copy and move and slice and dice this information it just becomes harder to manage.”
In addition to archiving, Brock points out that the tapeless workflow bottlenecks when it comes to making tapes.
“The biggest problem is when you need to make a dub of,” notes Brock. “Now your tapeless workflow has to talk to the tape world. As soon as your tapeless world has to talk to the tape world your nonlinear editing system becomes a tape machine. So you’re using your NLE as a tape system: bring the media in and allow the editing system to spit it out to tape, which is not very efficient.”
Pansonic reps noted that tapeless is the future of content creation and asset management and storage solutions will need to adapt. They also presented two solutions for longterm archival solution and promised more to come:
Data tape. "One good solution is LTO3 because it is very high speed and while the drives are a little expensive, getting 640 mbps out of an LTO3 drive is realistic and the cartridges hold between 400-800 GB. The cartridges are roughly $60."
Blu-Ray jukebox "We have shown an automated system using Bu ray that is like a jukebox that holds 30 Blu Ray discs and a Blu Ray recorder in it and a content management software package that will allow you to set up projects and ut them into a database that allows you to sort by metadata, add metadata and share the database with others. The CMS software will be available for free."
Comments (18) for "The P2 Matrix - Navigating File-Based Workflow"
1.
Sounds to me like the first guy is stuck in the "tape world" and doesn't want to leave. Tape is dead. Acquisition will be ones and zeros. DAM is will be much more important.
Change or be left behind.
Posted by Matt G on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 04:13 PM
2.
Howard Brock's world IS the tape world... Runway... a fine Avid editing company... lives in the world where everyone is using tape. Its not his fault... the points he make defend his position and the company's... HIS world needs to change. I am working on a project/facility where we are building the paradigm from the ground up. The solutions ARE there... and we CAN go tapeless, despite having to migrate from Betacam SX. But we are also a broadcaster, and have the ability to use a server that is capable of editing, archiving and playback to air. Our system is a closed one. This is why the IT world refers to "solutions." Howard is "stuck" in the tape world, simply because that world exists and his business exists there, too. He's making money. And we will be, too. "Change or be left behind"? Naive. If YOUR business model says that you can use 19mm nitrate film... and you can make money at it.... go for it. Yes, tapeless video production will rule the world. Someday. But you will probably be dead... or broke... by following fads... rather than solid business models....
Posted by Evan W on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 05:12 PM
3.
Howard seems to be complaining more about the lack of capability in Avid than P2 problems.
The one thing for sure about any temporary recording format (like P2 or removable hard drive) is that you need to get your arms around the lack of a permanent original medium or you need to wait until you are forced to go there.
Archiving problems do not start with P2. They start with non-linear editing. You need to deal with archiving somehow, regardless of the format of the original.
If you want it to work, you can figure out a way. There are definitely new issues to address with the new format.
If you want to continue to work your way, go ahead. Someone else will be willing to take the job. It's a business decision, either way.
crc
Posted by crc on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 06:21 PM
4.
I don't know why this guy is fighting this... we shot a three dvd set with multiple cameras just using p2. We had none of the problems he talks about, we were able to send out dvd's for client approval all the time (we could have done VHS but who uses that format anymore?). We were able to move the media all over the place, with no errors or problems (other than having to wait while the file was transferred)... anyone that has had to wait for an export from one Avid and import into another knows what I'm talking about... with P2, there is no import/export, just transfer the p2 files and viola! it's works in the Avid and is ready to go immediately.
I can't tell you the amount of time we saved in not having to digitise! We shot almost a terabytes worth of footage, which is currently stored on 3 x 300 gb HDD's at a cost much less than had we needed to put it onto digibeta or DVCPro tapes for backup.
Plus when we go to recreate the project, we just hook up the HDD's and we're ready to roll. It's that simple... It's too bad some people can't see the forest for the trees. Our Avids are the 'software' Xpress versions with a Mojo and it works so well, like a dream! The quality is outstanding and the clients is so happy!!!
P2 for me 24/7/365-sure there is the issue of card size which is quite puny, but within the next year we will be living in a nicer p2 world (imagine in 5 years when we have 128+ GB cards and using the AVC codec, it will be like having more storage then God!)
Nuf said,
PT3
Posted by pt3 on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 06:45 PM
5.
And if one of those 300gb drives failes? You have lost one-third of your project forever. You will have to re-shoot. There must be an inexpensive, fail safe way to store footage before P2 will be a viable solution for those who need to archive for the long term.
Posted by KG on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 07:19 PM
6.
Yes, I agree. Sounds like the problem is with Avid and not with the P2 workflow. A couple of P2 cards and one portable Panasonic P2 Store Drive, ($1583 ProMax) and you're good to go! The HVX200 rocks!
Posted by Scott V on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 @ 07:44 PM
7.
My workflow and archival solution: 1-shoot on P2; 2- dump to P2 store (I like the verify function); 3-use P2Genie to dump P2Store to two separate Firewire drives (at this point, it's redundant and safe); 4- input to FCP and edit. When I get a chance, I archive the MXF's onto two SDLT tapes, which have an archival life of at least 30 years. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but I am protected with redundancy from the moment I dump off of the P2Store (at least once daily during production). With tape (or film for that matter), I never bothered to back up tapes. Now some of my earlier work is getting sketchy and I'm backing that stuff off to SDLT too. The SDLT drive is fast (36MB/s sustained) and the media is proven and durable. I'll probably incorporate holographic storage into my archival scheme, but only alongside my proven and reliable SDLT. Just my two cents. I imagine my Red workflow will be somewhat similar, especially regarding archives. P2 has forced me to practice better archival procedures, and keeping the metadata is an added bonus.
I think that treating individual hard drives as long term storage is a big mistake - not reliable over time.
Posted by Verko on Thursday, March 8, 2007 @ 03:07 AM
8.
I've been doing photography for 30+ years. I started out with Super 8mm film, then to a 1/2 video tape machine, then to VHS then to Hi-8 then to Mini DV then to the P2 system. I have complete faith in the future of this and mine will be here Friday. Panasonic is betting on the future. If you don't believe in the future, what will you be recording on?
Posted by Ron Delabarre on Thursday, March 8, 2007 @ 04:11 AM
9.
I am a documentary photographer/editor and have been involved in the industry for 20+ years, so I have witnessed many changes in tape formats and editing solutions. One thing remains constant--telling a good story. The vehicle we use to do that will always evolve. Frankly, I welcome the concept of a tapeless acquisition to delivery system. What concerms me with the P2 system is the workflow for unscripted long-format productions. Our projects are field-based and we have very small crews. I cannot have observational shoots continuously disrupted because P2 cards need to be changed or I need to take time to dump the media into a drive. However, I think it is a perfect workflow for scripted productions or those involving slightly larger crews. This is just my humble opinion. I am probably going to look at a Sony or JVC product for my needs.
Posted by Cindy Hill on Thursday, March 8, 2007 @ 10:23 AM
10.
To me there is a basic dishonesty to P2. People are buying the HD P2 cameras and claiming they are HD even though to make the cost of the cards affordable almost everyone who uses P2 is shooting in DVCPro 25. That is not a HD format and to be honest from what I have seen of Panasonics HD cameras they don’t down convert very well.
networks keep saying they will not accept shows with more than 10% DVcam sourced material yet I know of whole shows that are being shot with HD cameras at DVCPro 25 and edited at DVcam quality then handed over on a DigiBeta tape. Is that honest?
Posted by Stephen on Thursday, March 8, 2007 @ 01:37 PM
11.
If you're smart, you'll use XDCAM HD which is cheap enough per disc to leave the material on there as a camera master and with a shelf life of 50 years, makes a nice archive. This is the big flaw in P2...the media is TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE.
Posted by Greg on Thursday, March 8, 2007 @ 07:51 PM
12.
whoever is using the HD P2 camera to shoot DVCPro 25 is not using the full potential of the camera. everything i've shot with the camera in the last 4 months has been HD, whether its 1080i or some form of 720p (timelapse, native 24fps, 60 fps, etc.). i use 3 cards on my shoots and a Powerbook. when i fill a card, i put it in the powerbook for downloading and replace it in the camera with the 3rd card. when i fill the 2nd card, the first one is done downloading and i can swap them out again. even at at a rapid shooting speed in the highest quality and frame rate available for the HVX200, 3 cards have been sufficient for this kind of workflow. granted, the switch from sony cameras and tape took some getting used to, but i'm not interested in going back.
Posted by kevin on Friday, March 9, 2007 @ 01:29 AM
13.
The material I shoot gets archived on a Level-1 RAID which ensures the data surviving should one drive suddenly die.
As for the P2 media being expensive, it is. But it's reusable and cost comes down over time. What's not cheap is long-term storage. As mentioned, I store on a Level-1 RAID and that comes to about 80 cents per minute. But that's still competitive with DVCProHD tape without the cost of a Varicam deck.
Check out what Panasonic provided the Iditarod crews for media: 20 cards each, being shot at 24PN. Up to 10 cards a day is expected to be shot. Again, not a cheap solution. But it's still cost-competitive with what you'd spend on tapes for a Varicam.
Posted by Dean on Saturday, March 10, 2007 @ 02:47 PM
14.
Tape is dead, whether p2 takes the lead or not.
The final format is not the capture format anymore!
I can tell you that I am so happy that there is no standard for recording like Betacam etc, I just capture edit and publish all in bits.
Posted by symonty on Saturday, March 10, 2007 @ 09:33 PM
15.
I've got nothing against tapeless workflows! We don't need any more tape formats to deal with, we've got plenty already. Usually in our business it's two steps forward, one step backwards. Moving data is easy (as long as it doesn't get corrupted in the process), archiving, storing and making it compatible with things other than computers, that's a bit harder. Tapeless workflows are a work in progress and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Take a look at the comments here and see if you can discern who the shooters are and which ones are also involved in post.
Posted by Howard Brock on Tuesday, March 13, 2007 @ 11:33 PM
16.
I shoot, direct and edit music videos for up and coming bands on iTunes, MusicPlus.com i have a small production co right in the middle of west hollywood CA . I am very conected to the 20-35 year old artist coming from a music background myself.
I put a $1000 down on the RED camera but I am now more intrested in the AJ-HPX3000 in fact I would like to completly blow the RED camera off .
I have been useing Pancionic all along and have been more that happy with the results.
I would be very interested in trying the AJ-HPX3000 for a complete video shoot coming up in April for a band called SOULKID#1- Who's song "We Got More Bounce in California" has been used in two major motion pictures - Win a Date with Todd Hamelton & Legally Blond e Bounce in please let me know in this is possible.
Thank You
Joel Turrisi (Google my name )
Posted by JOEL TURRISI on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 @ 10:54 PM
17.
HD EXPO recently launched the P2 Workflow Workshop, the next evolution in their line of independent workshops taught by working professionals for working professionals. It's a 2-day intensive that covers everything from the camera's menus and features all the way down to working with the tapeless format in different post situations. Strengths and limitations of the format in a hands-on situation. http://hdexpo.net/education for more info - first workshop is July 19-20 in LA with coupons for P2 owners and potential buyers that can make taking the workshop free.
As to the 3000 camera, some colleagues of mine are doing a test shoot with the camera this week with the only prototype in North America. 4th of July fireworks and that sort of thing. Panasonic says that the camera will be released around August, but I'd put my bets more around September. But it's interesting to see it being compared to the RED camera in it's effect upon the industry.
Posted by Katie on Monday, July 2, 2007 @ 10:26 PM
18.
If P2 media was cheaper these Panasonic cameras would be flying off the shelves. P2 is a really great format. I love my HVX and I love using P2 cards but I can't do much with them yet. If I could afford a bunch of big P2 cards I would be doing a lot more documentary/talking heads stuff to 720p instead of DV. If I could afford a bunch of P2 cards I could keep them around without deleting them until a project was over. If a 32 gig card dropped to $200 I'd buy 5-10 of them and give them all a name.
Posted by eugene on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 @ 12:44 PM