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Avid Execs At Editors Lounge: MC5 is a game changer

photos by Basia Curren

Avid execs Gary Greenfield, CEO, and Kirk Arnold, COO, attended Editors Lounge at AlphaDogs Editorial in Burbank to engage editors in discussion about Avid products and what the company needs to do to keep meeting their needs and expectations. The monthly Editors Lounge, founded by AlphaDogs owner, editor Terence Curren, drew an overflow audience of 200 people to this event. It was also an opportunity for those who had not been able to attend NAB 2010 to see a demonstration of Avid Media Composer 5, as well as web-based editing. Avid senior product designer Doug Hansel, who was on the design teams for Adrenaline and Mojo, showed beta version 3 of MC5, running on his laptop. “There’s no hard drive hiding any more,” he said. “We could be running a Matrox box–one new option announced at NAB—to get HDMI out. That’s a cool option.” Hansel went over the features of Avid Media Access (AMA) and its ability to directly access file-based media. To attendees, one of the most exciting new characteristics of AMA is that other companies can write plug-ins to support their media. “Here’s where it gets interesting,” said Hansel, who showed access to 4K RED files among other types of files. “Instant access to ProRes media. If the Quicktime player can play it, we can play it. Canon has a new media format called SX – we had support for it the day it was announced–and it hasn’t even shipped yet.” “Plug-ins solve problems and enhance what’s there,” said Hansel, to applause from the attendees. He handed the floor over to Greenfield and Arnold, who explained that Terry Curren had reached out to them a few months ago. “We don’t have a speech to give,” said Greenfield. “We’re here to answer your questions. There was a pretty loud message a couple of years ago where Avid was in the marketplace. MC5 is what it is based on what Terry [Curren] and the Los Angeles community said it had to be.” The first question–”How do we make Final Cut Pro go away”–was met with applause. Greenfield’s answer was circumspect. “The first person I met here this evening said he is a Final Cut user but figured he needed to expand his horizons if he wanted to get work,” he said. “I think what we’ve been trying to do at Avid is to make sure that we give you all the tools you need for those of you who make your living in storytelling and editing and finishing. We want to make sure that Avid is the tool of choice and we get that message across to the studios and students.” One attendee noted that he’s been forced to learn FCP because his client is using it. “MC5 coming out  June 10,” answered Greenfield. “You won’t have to stay in FCP. There are some people refusing to work in FCP for reasons of productivity and quality. We think openness will feed more towards Avid than away from it.” Arnold added how committed Avid is to the MC5 platform. “That said, we’re going to compete hard, particularly for this community of professional editors,” she said. “We have to get the word out. There are a long list of features we need, so keep [your suggestions] coming. We will be aggressive about keeping the message out that we think this is a better product. And you can help us: keep talking about it. This release of MC is a game changer, we believe.” Greenfield mentioned that Avid is also  making efforts in the education market, now offering full access to MC for students for four years, with all the upgrades, for only $295. Two students among the attendees spoke up, saying they were happy beneficiaries of that new pricing. Another attendee asked how Avid intended to support not just students but young editors starting out in their careers. Arnold answered that Avid has “a very community-based plan we’re trying to launch.” “There are also targeted ways like indie film events and reaching out at places like Sundance to raise our profile,” she said. “This will be hand-to-hand combat. We know the young editor will have experience with FCP coming out of film school, but we will show the natural richness of the Avid product. We’re also doing training programs: MC for the FCP editor. We think it’s about knowledge, not an advertising campaign. We think it’s about getting the richness and capabilities out there. We have lots of plans. This community will be a long-term investment for us.” Another attendee asked when Avid will offer control surface for Symphony. “We acquired Euphonix just a couple of weeks ago,” Greenfield said, noting that when he and Arnold talk about Media Composer, they are talking about the family of products that includes Symphony. “Besides having System 5, their high end mixing console, they have a fantastic modular series that provides color control surface, mixing surface, and so on. You will see us rapidly support this.” One attendee identified himself as a Dual-Boot operator. “I love what you’re adding to MC and Symphony but I love my DS,” he said. “How do you get them to talk to each other better?” Greenfield responded that “we have tried to make sure we have integrated workflow.” “As we introduce native RED, we show support to DS for an integrated workflow,” he said. “We know there are still things we need to do but we need to provide an integrated workflow between DS and MC.” “The DS is a passionate community,” added Arnold. “The team is looking at what it’ll take to get to Euphonix. We’re working through the entire suite of products. DS is alive and well. It’s a critical market and we know we have to continue to invest in it. This community is important to us.” With regard to integrating more 3rd party hardware, Greenfield noted that Avid supports the Matrox Mini, but that this is only the first of many 3rd party vendors Avid will support. “Our goal is clearly to be more open,” he said. “We’re providing the SDK (software development kit) to 3rd party vendors so they can create drivers for Avid. Whether it’s AJA or Blackmagic…Everyone has their own favorite. We recognize the need for low-cost i/o.  We will provide the SDKs to these folks as we have with all the camera manufacturers.” The topic turned to 3D filmmaking and editing with Avid products. “We do support 3D today,” said Greenfield. “Our first technology demo was around NAB,  two years ago and we introduced it a year ago. Every major movie in 3D that’s appeared thus far was cut on Avid. We support left/right, over/under. We have the beginnings of 3D titling tools that would automatically adjust the depth.” But Greenfield noted that Avid is more focused on storytelling–offline editing–than finishing in 3D. “We’ve just scratched the surface in editorial,” added Hansel. One questioner noted that Script Sync “hasn’t been touched in five years,” and said he had “complaints about lots of simple things.” Hansel said that the person responsible for the Script Sync software was there, and would get the two of them together that evening.”We love to hear about [your issues],” said Greenfield, who also said that revamping the title tool was on the “to-do” list. “We need a foundation in MC fixed and then do some of the more exotic features like Script Sync.  We have made a major commitment to Script Sync.” Avid has always done shared storage better than anyone, added another attendee. “I don’t see a lot of push to get FCP users to buy Unity shared storage,” he said. “I think it would be helpful to get more people using Avid storage. Is there a way you want to go?” Arnold answered that “the message about openness.” “We believe strongly that each product will be best in class and compete,” she said. “That you need us to be open and flexible because your workflows are more complex and we can’t be good at everything. As far as support of FCP on storage-–we did that because you told us you needed it and we’ll continue to do it and expand that support, so you can leverage your investment in storage. We won’t hold back on that.” Greenfield added that Avid “does nothing to restrict FCP’s performance,” reporting that he offered to share “the knowledge of collaboration with Apple and incorporate those same capabilities into FCP.” What did Apple say?  “They listened,” said Greenfield. One last speaker stood up for independent filmmakers. “With the new Avid, indie artists and freelancers are also being addressed,” she said. “And I hope you continue to do it. Although we spend less, there are huge numbers of us.  I was forced into using FCP because the in/out hardware was so much cheaper. If you could remember us…” “We think of you often, and we’re committed to that segment of the marketplace,” said Arnold. “For indie professionals, we know the total cost of ownership matters. And we think we have one that is competitive.”

24 Comments

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  • http://www.PixelFlow.com Patrick Sculley

    Any Avid users looking for stock footage should check out PixelFlow – http://www.PixelFlow.com

    All HD footage can be downloaded as DNxHD and they also support DNxHD uploads from suppliers.

  • http://www.kmppost.com/ Erik Peterson

    Great event but the following statement should read:

    “One attendee identified himself as a Dual-Boot operator. “I love what you are adding to MC and Symphony but I love my DS” he said “How do you get them to talk to each other better?”

    Thanks,
    Erik Peterson
    Online Editor
    Keep Me Posted
    A FotoKem Company

    • http://www.MobilizedTV.com Debra Kaufman

      Thanks Erik – I’m assuming you were that Dual-Boot operator and have made the change indicated.

  • http://www.kmppost.com/ Erik Peterson

    Yes that was me and thank you for your quick response.

    Debra your always welcome to stop by Keep Me Posted and I can show you our Avid Dual-Boot Bays, plus all the others.

    All the best,

    Erik Peterson
    Online Editor
    Keep Me Posted
    A FotoKem Company

  • ron

    Being “forced” into using one product over the other is a stupid comment. You need to know the tools that are out there to do your job. Just like a compositor needs to know Shake and Nuke. It is simply what is required today. I am glad Avid is listening and responding, which is something Apple doesn’t appear to do,a but FCP is not going away. Turner,ABC and Fox all made huge investments in multiple FCP systems and it is a major player in the ever slow to change Hollywood market. (When Avid first came out it was years after the commercial editorial market embraced it that Hollywood even considered moving away from cutting film). An editor EDITS. Knowing both systems is as important as knowing how to make a dissolve. They are both good, both work and both make their owners money!

  • Dave

    “They are both good, both work and both make their owners money!”

    Ron, I can’t tell you how many times FCP has lost owners money. The workflow is unstable, and messy. Nothing compared to Unity. FCP doesn’t have a strong trim tool like Avid. I can do delicate moves in Avid with one button clicks that require layers of button pushes even with keyboard mapping in FCP. In addition, the render time on FCP doesn’t even compare to Avid’s AMA. Finally, Avid’s Script Sync tool has accelerated my workflow way beyond anything possible in FCP. A combo of all these things on an Avid saves producers on the bottom line. The lack of and time consumed fixing network issues on FCP has totally cost producers money on numerous projects. That’s why so many are moving back to Avid including some of the networks you’ve listed.

  • kak

    I was raised on FCP and am just starting to learn Avid. So far, for me to do one thing in Avid, it takes more than 2 steps, while in FCP it only takes one. It is also hard to find your original media in Avid and consolidating is hell for me. People say it’s harder to trim in FCP than Avid, but I disagree. For the amount of time it takes me to switch the tools in Avid to trimming mode, I’ve already done my trimming in FCP. I have also never had any issues with FCP, while Avid always crashes on me. It could be the computer I’m using too, but it cost me less to get a full working FCP system than Avid. I guess it’s just personal preference and what you’re used to and FCP just hasn’t failed me yet. Maybe when I get better at Avid I’ll see the actual differences. If you want to get your jobs, just learn both. They are both good, it’s just how you used them. If you know how to properly used it, it will work out great for you, nobody which software you use. It’s just a tool like Ron said. You just have to know how to use.

  • http://home.roadrunner.com/~mkrupnick/ Michael Krupnick

    Well, the continuing squabble Avid v. FCP, if not already terminally boring, will probably come to an end soon, at Steve Jobs’ hand. Apple is all about iPads iTunes and iPods now, not pro apps. If you already are trying to keep aging Mac assets alive, you know all about throwing away good engineering because the company doesn’t deem it profitable to support: they’d rather sell you something “new” with no more utility, but a higher price tag. Jobs was always the Paris Hilton of the group, and nostalgia about the missing Woz won’t do anything now. That’s why he skated – a long time ago. Not saying that the gang in Tewkesbury haven’t done some bad things through the years, either…but so far, they don’t seem to be “diversifying” into the candy-and-gum market. Neither has Adobe. -ahem-

  • http://onelungfilms.com Keith

    I’m a conflicted young editor. I learned FCP first in 2003 then learned Avid in order to find work in commercial editorial. Nowadays I mostly work on Avid like +90%. It took me a while to come around on Avid, I simply hated it at first, but now I have my FCP keyboard arranged to mirror my Avid keyboard. There’s a lot to love about Avid and still much that is so bothersome and seems really lazy on their part, considering how long this software has been around.

    I have to say though when it’s up to me what system to cut on I choose FCP because it’s cheaper, nicer resolutions, less restrictive (but because of this you must be more disciplined) and if you think outside the box you can create some really powerful workflows. XMLs are essential when collaborating between editors. It certainly isn’t going to go anywhere so everyone is best served knowing both. Apple is meeting with professionals in LA semi-regularly basis at the moment as well to get feedback for the next version. You can be sure the next FCP upgrade is probably going to address some of its long standing issues. I hope at the very least FCP creates a better media management, trimming, and source timelines.

    Saying that Avid I hope will aggressively update their interface to bring it up to more modern feel. The bins feel like Windows 95, print bin always cutting off your script view icons, title tool is super lame, the effects nesting is so outdated (FCP handles the layering of effects in a much nicer way with it’s filter and motion tabs), clips with alpha channel are a joke in Avid, not being able to matchback precomps (are you kidding me), the constantly grey “black” levels, and not having After Effects style layer modes (like screen, overlay, multiply, etc) are just a few examples of areas where Avid can learn from FCP. I’d love to be able to have more than one record sequence tabbed at a time in Avid.

    Anyway I’m glad Avid is finally adapting to the FCP threat. It may be a little too late for some people. If they are serious about improving it to it’s fullest potential people like me will never look back at FCP. This arms race is good for us the editors.

  • Fred Raimondi

    I love these holy wars. I’ve seen it all.

    CMX vs GVG
    Henry vs Flame vs AE
    Maya vs XSI

    I could go down the list.

    I can tell you one thing that Final Cut does and did that Avid doesn’t do and would NEVER have done unless FCP became a force, and that is to “lower the barrier to entry for people who want to edit”. FCP let anyone who wants to edit learn a professional system without having to “beg, borrow, or steal” time at a facility that “had the gear” to learn. Some see that as a problem. I see it as furthering our art form.

    I’ve been editing since CMX and one inch machines. And really, a tool is just a tool.

    The fact that I could plunk down $800 for Final Cut Studio and not only get a professional non linear editing system, but a compositing system (Shake), an audio mixing/sweetening/sound design system (Soundtrack), Professional DVD authoring tool (DVD Studio Pro), and oh yeah, a tool (Compressor) to be able to transcode almost ANY file based video format to almost any other file based video format, Motion Graphics software (Motion) and not need any other hardware to make it run makes FCP a pretty compelling product. Yes. You get all those products in Final Cut Studio. And yes. It REALLY is a Studio Suite. Which Avid is not.

    Now….my lovely wife, who is also an editor (and adorable to boot!), edits on FCP only because she has to. She’s a total pro and learned it because she doesn’t like turning down work. It ALSO allows her to work from home MUCH more cheaply than AVID would. She prefers AVID. It’s her axe. And I get it.

    It’s the same reason that some guitar players like Les Pauls, and some Stratocasters. Personal preference. Me? I NEVER learned AVID, so FCP is my axe of choice.

    Does that make AVID a bad tool? Not at all. It’s a fine editing system. I would say that there is probably a way to do EVERYTHING you can do on an AVID in FCP and vice versa. Will one take more keystrokes than the other? Yes. It comes down to what you’re used to using.

    People choose software based on a number of things:
    The number of seats they need (cost/license)
    Installed User base (what good is having a system if you can’t find someone to run it)
    Upkeep/Maintenance/Upgrade Costs

    When I became a director and independent filmmaker, I HAD to learn to use After Effects. Having been a Flame compositor since Flame version 1.0 did I want to? NO. But guess what? It was a fiscal necessity. I had to learn AE to compete. The projects I was doing at the time couldn’t AFFORD to work on a Flame system, but I found I could make budgets work if I used AE and worked at home. Often it meant the difference between me doing and NOT doing a job. It meant the difference between income or no income. In the end I got the same result. Did it take longer? Yes. Was it painful? Sometimes.

    In terms of systems crashing….it’s probably a tie. Most of the time, systems crash because they’re either poorly maintained or the user is trying to run software that REALLY isn’t designed to be run on an older system, or one that doesn’t have enough RAM.

    The point that I’m making is that these things are tools.

    Just like lights, camera, and acting.

    A great guitar player can pick up a vintage Strat and make it sing. He can also pick up a thrift shop beater guitar and make that one sing too. It’s the player, not the guitar.

    If you’re going to survive in any craft area (in this case editorial) you’d better know all the tools pertinent to that craft area.

    I can promise you that there IS someone else out there that does, and when the phone rings THAT person will get the gig before the person that DOESN’T.

    FCP or AVID? Know them both, and then some.

    but everyone knows FCP is better…. ;-)

  • Shelly Wexler

    It’s true, women make better editors than men and when she says Avid is better, you gotta go with Avid. Period.

  • http://www.johnbrunedigital.com John Brune

    Don’t gouge my eyes out for asking this but is HDV still being supported? I’m still cutting on AVID Xpress Pro on a 3 year old 24″ iMac and everything’s smooth sailing because I’ve chosen to save money and not upgrade so much. But if I upgrade in the near future will HDV still be supported? I’m sure it will but I feel compelled to ask anyway! Also, are there HDMI in/out solutions for AVID that don’t cost an arm and a leg?

    I don’t use RED, and I don’t use Shake, etc. But I support my business and my livelihood with AVID and HDV videotape. I agree with many of the things said about AVID and FCP. My biggest gripe about AVID is its clunky title tool. Thanks!

    John Brune
    steadicamjr@yahoo.com

    • http://www.scottsimmons.tv Scott Simmons

      I haven’t heard specifically about hdv in mc 5.0 but i can’t imagine they would take a supported format out. As for hdmi, check out the $500 Matrox MXO 2 Mini. (actually a bit less than that i think) first and most affordable non-Avid brand hardware. The title tool still sucks but it comes with another application, Avid Marquee. It’s like after effects for titles

  • darrin

    Avid lost all hope when they gambled with Microsoft and dropped Quicktime. Look at ‘em now.. they are coming back to Quicktime with their tail between their legs.
    The reason why Apple’s iProducts, and Proapps are doing so great is the open/extendability of Quicktime. Now Avid is playing catchup with what FCP has been doing for 10+ years.
    When an Avid editor starts editing FCP their head explodes from freedom. “NO” you don’t have to leave Avid to do this simple compositing.
    You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make ‘em drink.
    You can show people the way out of the cave but most people will fight and kick just to stay inside.

  • Mark

    @ darrin

    WTF are you talking about, Avid dumped Qucktime?
    When? I have been using Avid for years and QT has always been the backbone of supported formats.

  • http://www.ronsussman.com ron sussman

    Fred Raimondi could not have said it better and I can tell that he knows what he is talking about. I worked with fred back when you had to run multiple 1″ machines and some crazy ass ADO box just to make a comp. He has seen it all. I always try to remind young editors that a tool is a tool and if you truly are an editor you should be able to accomplish the same goal wether you are cutting on an Avid, FCP or a pair of rewinds and a viewer. As someone who spent 16 years on Avid and started on the last official beta release, system id #6, I prefer FCP for its flexibility and its price point. Avid V5 looks very good however and when they open it up to third party hardware some more I will give it a good work out. I use both Avid and FCP, depending on who is paying me, but when it comes down to it they are basicly the same. An editor edits!

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  • Davis McKinley

    This whole meeting sounds pretty scripted, right down to the planted questions in the audience. It’s a typical marketing ploy, this time used by Avid. Why would an editor’s group that is about the editors allow that to happen?

  • Debra Kaufman

    Hi Davis: I was AT the meeting and, no, the people asking questions were not shills for Avid nor were the questions planted. Editors Lounge meets once a month at AlphaDog Editorial and a big group of local editors and filmmakers is always in attendance. I think people saw this as a great opportunity to meet the top execs and ask questions. A lot of the questioners were bullish on MC5, but there were also some criticisms and challenges, which were also reported in the article. Best, Debra

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  • http://www.alphadogs.tv Terence Curren

    Davis,

    I can guarantee you that Editors’ Lounge questioners are not scripted. Anything but. You take a group of seasoned editors, give them some alcohol, and let them loose on product demos, and you find out real quick what the weak spots are.

    It amazes me that any manufacturers come back to Editors’ Lounge, but they actually appreciate it as they get the real feedback from people who use their products.

    While there were a lot of folks from Avid at the event, none of them were in the audience asking questions. Unfortunately for me, I couldn’t even get in the room when the execs were talking as it was packed, but I know plenty of the editors who were in there and they were grilling the Avid folks.

  • H

    FCP sucks. Everyone I’ve ever known who use it have either lost their entire movie when using it, and or can’t understand editing on it in the first place. Get over it. All the real editors use Avid. Glad to see MC5 is coming out.

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