With sex, lies and videotape in 1989, Steven Soderbergh re-invented the
indie feature. Since then, he’s ping-ponged between big Hollywood
crowd-pleasers (Oceans 12, Traffic, Erin Brockovich, Out of Sight) and
his own, challenging experiments in filmmaking (The Limey, Full
Frontal). Most recently, Soderbergh — who often acts as his own
cinematographer — directed and shot Bubble, featuring non-actors in a
minimalist story that takes place in a doll factory.
F&V: Bubble is so provocative in so many ways. Who are you aiming
this picture at? What do you want them to take away from it?
Ultimately, my primary motivation was to make something that wasn’t
populated with faces that you’d normally see in a movie, set in a place
you wouldn’t normally see in a movie. When [Bubble screenwriter]
Coleman Hough and I were kicking around the initial idea — a triangle
that goes wrong with a murder in it — I was interested in people who do
repetitive manual labor. She came back later and said, “What about a
doll factory?” There are only three doll factories left in the U.S.,
two of them in Bel Pre, Ohio. I saw it and said, “This is great.” The
idea was to just embed ourselves in the environment as much as possible
and respond to it as much as possible. The whole idea was to make it as
site specific as possible. We cast the movie with locals, started
talking to the actors and getting stories from them. We hoped to create
a very organic process in which we trying to respond to the environment
instead of showing up and changing it.
F&V: The film has a lot of documentary qualities to it. How “documentary” was it in the making?
It was a structured exploration. On the one hand, we had a
scene-by-scene breakdown. The scale of the movie — not a lot of money
and a very, very small crew — allowed us to work in a way that’s very
free. For instance, I might say to [actress] Misty Wilkins, “This is
what I want you to talk about when you say you worked in a nursing
home,” or to Dustin [actor Dustin James Ashley], here’s what I want you
to say about your panic disorder. Coleman and I logged all our
conversations we’d had and we had access to these stories, and we’d
think, here’s a good place for this one.
My experience in working with non-actors told me is that memorization
often disables them. When they can speak in their own voices, they can
remain themselves, which is what we wanted them to do.
With regard to the camerawork, there’s not a single handheld shot in
the movie, which is not something you associate with documentary
filmmaking. But we did have a willingness to let situations play out in
a frame, and the viewer senses that no one is being told to hit a mark.
We wanted to capture things as opposed to staging them.
My next film [The Good German] is very stylized, very theatrical. This
was more my desire to have a different experience – have an experience
different from the prior experience. I’m always trying to annihilate
what I just did – and this was a way to do that. The film I’m making
now is in essence an annihilation of Bubble. That’s the only way I can
stay interested. I guess some people find some comfort in having
similar experience repeatedly, but the idea of that makes me very, very
anxious – which is why I was drawn to the story of someone who has to
do the same thing every day.
F&V: Another innovative aspect of the film is its distribution,
since Bubble was simultaneously released in movie theatres, on HDNet TV
and on DVD. Are you making a statement about digital platforms creating
innovative distribution? Why do you think this model will work?
It’s time to try this – legally. We’re not the first. Movies have been
available for a long time day-and-date. It’s called piracy. Honestly,
for a movie like this — which, for lack of a better word, is an
“arthouse” movie — there are people who might want to enjoy it and
don’t have an arthouse theater in their town. They can watch it off of
HDNet or get it from Netflix. We only have to sell the movie once. This
is something I felt that absolutely was going to happen.
When I heard that [Bubble executive producers] Mark Cuban and Todd
Wagner bought the Landmark theaters, I said, “We really have to talk.”
We’d worked together on Section 8 movies and they seemed unencumbered
by traditional ideas. We’re trying to find the future trend of how
movies are going to be released, so let’s find out.
I know it’s the right thing for this movie. Whether this turns out to
be right for every movie, I don’t know. I think that the whole model,
economically and practically, of how movies are released and
distributed has to be looked at and changed. It’s a discussion that
needs to involve all the relevant parties and it hasn’t so far. You
need to get the creative people, studios and exhibitors in a room and
have a discussion about all this. People need to be made true partners
in this situation. Everybody needs to alter the way they think and do
things a little bit different in order to have everyone benefit. It’s
hard to admit you have to change. One thing for sure: The genie is out of the bottle – things move in one direction. Vinyl is not coming back.
F&V: What was the budget on Bubble?
It was $1.6 million. We probably could have made the movie for less,
but we ended up paying people decently because I knew they would be
doing more than one job. And we all own a piece of it. If it works
financially, everyone shares in the pool. It’s a Marxist kind of thing.
When you make a movie like this and it’s such a small team, you want
people to participate if the thing takes off. It’ll make them want to
do it again.
F&V: What does the title refer to?
The word appeared in my head and I wrote it in a notebook. I didn’t
feel the need to analyze it until people asked me about it. The cheesy
explanation is that it’s something beautiful and delicate like a
bubble. My view was that Martha before Rose shows up had a situation
that for her was very beautiful but she didn’t realize how delicate it
was — and this girl shows up and ruins it. She was content until Rose
arrived. She didn’t realize how precarious and volatile her own
situation was, and she’s not living in a world in which people sit
around and discuss that stuff.
F&V: Did you shoot HDCAM SR or plain old HDCAM?
It was just HDCAM. I don’t honestly know why we didn’t go with HDCAM SR.
F&V: Are you Peter Andrew, who is credited as cinematographer on Bubble?
Yes. And Mary Ann Bernard [who’s credited with editing
Bubble]. Why? My name is up there once — that’s
enough.
F&V: Why do you like being your own cameraman?
It’s how I started making film. I was shooting for myself. I was also
trained as a still photographer. I shot for other people and worked for
some very good cinematographers. I was leaning toward it, so on Traffic
I decided it was time to do it. Now, it would be really hard to insert
somebody else into that process. I’ve gotten very comfortable with it
and have very good support. No matter how sizeable the movie may be, it
makes me feel the same way I felt when I started making movies as a
teenager. It connects me to that sensation. In a direct way, it’s
pleasurable. It’s more work — there are no 5-minute or 10-minute breaks
from the set — but it’s fun.
When I’m making a normal-scale feature, I work closely with my gaffer,
who’s a crucial part of the team. In both circumstances, my 1st and 2nd
assistant camerapeople are very important. It’s good to have people
around who are imaginative and experienced. It’s helpful to have people
there who can implement your nutty ideas.
On Bubble, our crew was small: 1st and 2nd assistant cameramen I
brought from Oceans 12, one grip and one gaffer. We had one light we
used for the blue-light effect we had on Martha, and we just rented it
on those days. We had another light, a 1K with a gel on it, that we
used to light up the outside of Kyle’s trailer. Everything fit —
camera, wardrobe, grip equipment — onto one trailer and one van we
drove around in. It was pretty low-impact. When the people in Bel Pre,
Ohio, and Parkersburg, West Virginia, heard a film was coming in, they
expected something different.
F&V: What was your experience shooting HD?
I loved shooting it. We were able to work quickly so I had time to
think about things while we were doing them and change direction
radically without much problem. Plus, I could go home at night and
start cutting on an Avid Xpress Pro. We would downres the HD tapes and
then load them on the Avid Xpress and within two hours of shooting I
had all the footage of that day. We had a first cut of the film the day
we wrapped.
We had 18 days of shooting — 13 days, then two days to cut, then two
more shooting days so we could add any pieces we needed. We built the
schedule so I could decide what we needed. That was the benefit of
working on the cheap. Wong Kar-wai does this but on a much more
significant scale. But it’s not the norm. It only works if you’ve got
the crew and budget size that can allow for it.
F&V: Describe what it was like to direct non-actors.
We were usually running two, sometimes three cameras, and we only used
wireless mics because I didn’t want them distracted by boom operators.
There was no lighting to speak of. It was really just about trying to
create as comfortable an environment for them as possible. They were
fun to watch because you never quite knew what was going to happen –
how they’d respond or what they’d say. After one or two takes, I’d find
I would have what I needed. In the interrogation scene with Martha and
the detective, it was one take. We let her sit in that room alone for a
while, and she didn’t know what tack the detective would take or about
those photographs of Misty with bruises on her neck. She got really
upset and the further we got into it the more she got scared. She
started feeling like how it must feel when you realize you’re in
trouble.
F&V: You’ve been involved with the evolution of the DI, from a producer
credit on Pleasantville all the way through to the 4K DI process
pioneered on Ocean's 12. On Bubble, were you shooting to maintain
dynamic range to manipulate later in DI or did you paint while you shot?
I just painted while I shot, strictly based on what looked good to my
eye. I was trying to take advantage of what the cameras did well and
the openness of the schedule to make time-of-day a critical part of
what we were shooting. I knew I wasn’t going to be doing anything
fancy. We timed the whole film in four hours. We went through it really
quickly. I had done some coloring in the Avid, so the colorist, Ed
Twifer at Technicolor in Hollywood, saw a corrected D-5. Ed was our
dailies colorist on Oceans 12.
DI didn’t play a big part but I’m sure glad we were there doing it. I’m
big on contrast and like to play with saturation, and it’s difficult to
do in a pure Hazeltine environment. I’m so slap-happy that I never have
to deal with a Hazeltine again. When you were in that situation where
you just want more contrast, more bite, you can’t just adjust the gamma
for one shot. You’d say, “I want two more points,” and then you
wouldn’t like it. I always found that really tedious and frustrating.
I’m just glad that DI existed so I could control the look more
precisely. We just screened a film print and I was thrilled with what I
saw.
F&V: When you've opted not to shoot your films, what have you learned from
cinematographers like Ed Lachman (The Limey, Erin Brockovich) or Eliot
Davis (Out of Sight)?
I would watch very, very closely. I bombard them with a lot of
questions about why and what they were doing to achieve a certain
effect, and how they got the idea. I’d pester them. I’ve learned a lot
from them. They’re bright, open, creative people.
F&V: Why did you feel so strongly about doing a 4K DI on
Oceans 12? Was it for future-proofing the film?
Part of it was to see if this was something that should be taken
advantage of in the future. Part of it, ironically, was because we were
pushing the stock one or two steps and I wanted more. Then there were
ancillary uses. You have to do the D-Cinema version, the home-theater
version, and extrapolation from the 4K was really great. At E-Film,
whatever those algorithms are, they really have it figured out. All the
elements generated from our 4K were really beautiful.
F&V: Is 4K really necessary for quality prints? Is it enough? Are you looking forward to the 8K DI?
It couldn’t hurt. This weekend, I’m going to look at a 6K camera, the
Dalsa Origin. What the hell? Where does it stop? I don’t know. A full-on tweaked-out 2K on a sizeable screen is pretty impressive. If I were shooting 65mm, I’d definitely want a 4K scan.
F&V: Did you prefer the film or 2K projection of Ocean’s 12?
All in all, I probably prefer a good 2K Christie projection of that
just because of the fact that it’s in focus, it’s not weaving and it
doesn’t have spots and scratches. It looks the way I want it to look,
and it’ll look that way three weeks from now.
F&V: In addition to the Dalsa Origin, have you experimented much with
next-generation “megadef” cameras like the Panavision Genesis, Thomson
Viper or Arri D20?
I’ve tested the Viper and the Genesis. I liked the Viper a lot but I
was advised at the beginning of Ocean’s 12 that it wasn’t ready to go
on the road to another continent. But I really liked what I saw. The
Genesis has an amazing image but the camera was a little too big for my
taste. I’m really anxious to look at the Dalsa. I think all the cameras
will be around. Film won’t go away. It’s a good capture medium and
still the only reliable archive medium. People really need to remind
themselves that if they want to make sure something will survive, they
still need to strike YCM. It’s the only guaranteed way to be sure it’ll
survive.
F&V: What’s new in your digital post process workflow?
What [sound re-recording mixer] Larry Blake and I have been doing
that’s becoming the norm is that we’re mixing out of Pro Tools. That
way, we’re never, ever duplicating work. It’s always a frustration to
do a temp, like it a certain way and then do the final and find it
doesn’t sound as good as the temp. This way, every edit will be the
same as the final. I keep threatening to learn ProTools. Once I get in
there, I’ll be up late doing all that stuff.
F&V: What’s your relationship with a DI colorist like? And how does digital
post affect his relationship with an editor? Does it make your job
easier when you’re your own editor?
On Ocean’s, we ended up at Efilm and worked with [DI artist] Mike
Eaves, who was great. As long as you have someone who understands the
system and what you’re talking about, I think you’re in good shape.
I’ve used several timers over my career and they’ve all been good. If I
had my druthers, I’d use the dailies colorist all the way through the
end. They’ve seen what I wanted, we’ve already had those conversations.
Maybe that’ll happen.
When I’m editing, all this technology makes it easy for me to do it and
see it quickly. In the case of the first Ocean’s film, I had my Avid on
the road with me, and the editor and I were emailing each other
timelines back and forth every day. We had a 10-week post and there’s
no way we could have done that without this technology. We were able to
show the producers the movie seven days after we wrapped. That’s
because the editor and I were in a room together, separated by 3,000
miles.
F&V: Has your DI aesthetic changed in the years since?
I certainly don’t feel like I’ve taken advantage of DI at all. I’m
really hoping on one of these projects to do something that’s only
possible with the combo of shooting film and doing a DI. So far, it’s
just enabled me to get what I want very quickly. What I’m interested in
doing is to get something I haven’t seen before.
F&V: What needs to change in the digital post process?
Just getting systems to talk back and forth to each other. The most
obvious is the transition back and forth from SD to HD. It’s still way
more shaky than it ought to be. We’re actually beta-testing a new
system. I’m on the Avid Xpress and we have an Adrenaline and new
software Avid has designed. We took my cut into HD, and now we’re
trying to get that cut back into my SD drive. As of today, it’s not as
simple as we think it should be. That’s the only problem now. There are
so many different versions of software and hardware, you can get
anomalies that take a lot of time to unwind.
F&V: Let’s talk about indie filmmaking. What have been the most disruptive —
or enabling — influences on indie filmmaking in the years since sex,
lies, and videotape?
Well, it’s like everything else. People are predicting its demise every
18 months. And right when you think it’s dead, someone makes a great
movie that pops and it’s great again. I saw Memento at a time during
which the filmmakers couldn’t get a distributor and I thought, “It’s
officially over if this movie can’t find a distributor.” It keeps
evolving. The definitions, which I never adhere to, are even less clear
than ever before. Steven Spielberg and George Lucas are the biggest
indie filmmakers of all because they have complete control.
F&V: How different is your approach to a popular,
Hollywood-style feature compared to a more indie-style film?
It isn’t. You’re still problem solving.
F&V: Tell me about The Good German. Is this a more traditionally produced
film? What film stock are you using? And how are you looking at
dailies?
The Good German is a murder mystery set in Berlin in 1945, right after
the end of the war in Europe. I’m shooting Kodak 5218 and printing
black-and-white. The black-and-white print stock that Kodak has made is
designed for this. We did HD dailies with a portable HD screening
trailer that followed us around, and Ed was our colorist again.
F&V: Did your experience directing and editing the epic Yes concert video
9012Live in 1986 have any influence on your feature-film career?
Not in creative terms, but in practical professional terms, absolutely.
That was a great opportunity for me. I was 22 at the time we finished
it. And it was through the people I was working with on that project
that I found an agent who turned out to be someone really important in
my career and life. And I had a blast doing it. My main memory is
halfway through editing seeing [director Russell Mulcahy’s Duran Duran
concert video] As the Lights Go Down. That was jaw-dropping and I was
so depressed. I thought, “Oh boy, ours won’t be like that.” It wasn’t,
but I had a really great time working with the band.
F&V: Of all the 1970s arthouse flicks to remake, why did
you pick Solaris? And what was it about
Point Blank that inspired The
Limey?
Why Solaris? It was prompted by someone asking me, “Would you ever want
to make a scifi movie?” And I said, “Yeah, I’d make Solaris.” A year
later, I got a call saying, “The rights are owned by LightStorm and Jim
Cameron is open to you doing it.” I had a great time working with Jim
and LightStorm. I learned a lot from him. Solaris was something I was
always drawn to. I read the book and felt there were potentially many
different versions. The book is like a tree that branches off in so
many different ways. It is a treasure trove of ideas. I love the
Tarkovsky film and feel our film has no relationship with it.
For Point Blank, I was attracted to the interesting narrative style. I
found it really seductive. For The Limey, at the time, my quote was:
“Get Carter as remade by Alain Resnais.” The idea was to take a really,
really simple story and tell it in as complicated a way as possible.
F&V: What's this Untitled Steven Soderbergh/Spalding Gray Documentary listed at IMDB?
I’m working on it now. I’ve just been compiling material. I’ll start
working on it in earnest after we lock The Good German. I have an
enormous amount of visual and written material his wife has given me to
go through. It won’t be a typical documentary. It’ll be a subjective,
strange piece.
F&V: What’s the status of Che?
We’re working on it now. We’ll shoot a little on it at the United Nations before they refurbish the place.
F&V: How did you get involved with A Scanner Darkly?
We were just sort of facilitators. Rick [director Richard Linklater] is
someone who we approach as a company and say, “We’d love to do
something with you because we’re a director-driven company.” He wanted
to do A Scanner Darkly and our job was to convince Warner Bros. to come
in and buy the book and get involved.
Wait ’til you see this. He’s taken indie animation to a new level.
F&V: How have your experiences with K Street and
Unscripted encouraged or discouraged you about further work in
television?
What I’ve done so far, I’ve really enjoyed doing. Television can be a
great place for projects suited to it as a medium. We’re now working on
The Ten Commandments — hour-long episodes, each one by a different
director doing whatever they want. It’s for FX. I hope it’s a signed
deal.
F&V: Do you watch TV? What shows do you like?
I watch almost exclusively true crime shows on A&E and Court TV. It’s just – there’s nothing like real life.
F&V: Who are your influences? Whose work currently inspires you?
Everybody! I’m still as anxious to see what’s coming out as anybody
else. I just saw The Constant Gardener, and that guy [director Fernando
Meirelles] is a filmmaker. I loved City of God but you don’t know with
a first film. That guy is really gifted. I thought it was a beautifully
put-together film.
F&V: How do you feel about the level of political
involvement — or lack of it — displayed by American
filmmakers?
I think it’s starting to shift. This year, Section 8 alone, we have
Good Night and Good Luck and Syriana. I don’t think we’re the only ones doing it. My hope is that all these films end up being viewed as
successful so it becomes easier to make those kinds of films. I’m
rooting for any serious, intelligent adult movie to make money.
F&V: Tips for young filmmakers? How do you stand out in the thick indie crowd?
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